’83 Prices, ’83 Unis…’83 Results?
Tonight the Orioles turn back the clock to 1983, the last time the club won — or got to– the World Series. A lot of the guys who made it happen will be in attendance and it looks like it’s going to be a hell of a celebration of Baltimore baseball. I’ll be there to soak it in, sitting somewhere in the $5.50 upper deck seats.
On paper, this should be a fine pitching matchup as Jeremy “Quality Start” Guthrie takes on A.J. “Might Soon Be an Oriole” Burnett. Of note is the fact that Nick Markakis has good numbers against Burnett: 7-22 (.318) with two doubles and two RBI. Adam jones has also hit Burnett well in limited duty, going 2-8 with a double and a homer.
Also of note: I have it on good authority that Camden Yards does, in fact, serve veggie dogs. Despite what that smokin’ redhead in the commercials says, Birdland is not a tofu-free zone. Which makes a non-meat-eating weirdo like myself pretty happy.
(photo from the Sun)
Excellent news on the veggie dogs. Now the only question is which stand you have to go to in order to get said “not dogs.”
Anyone know?
That redheaded girl (I’m assuming she’s the same one who goes “where this [the warehouse] is reachable this year! … right Nick??”) is totally cute.
I’m more partial to veggie (Boca) burgers than veggie dogs, but that’s funny that they actually have them at Camden while mocking them in the commercial.
I am punch-drunk in LOVE with those unis. The only way that Millar’s black hole in the lineup will heal me are ORANGE FRIGGIN’ STIRRUP SOCKS.
Anyone else think that Huff’s AB music should be this in order to complete the Huff Man persona?
That and I would pay to have Fahey’s be Solja Boy.
I’m carrying this topic over from the last post.
In a perfect scenario, Tex would have to be a free agent after the ’09 season. Maybe then would he see a little more progress (hopefully) amongst our younger players (that’s if he even cares about that aspect in deciding which team to sign with).
If he’s a hired gun, then he’ll just go with whoever gives him the bigger contract. Idealistically, we shouldn’t try to go toe-to-toe with Steinbrenner’s wallet, but like someone else mentioned, the Warehouse and Angelos are seemingly frothing at the mouth to get the hometown kid. It makes sense, since supplementing Millar’s offensive output with Texiera’s would potentially rival the Yankee’s lineup, and potentially Boston’s (That is, if Roberts stays, Markakis stays consistent, Jones continues his improvement, and Wieters pans out). If Texiera would rather play for the O’s than anyone else, then we should be Golden…if he only cares about the dollar, then expect us to GROSSLY overpay him (and go against the current plan), or we’ll be seeing him in pinstripes.
Well, the pregame stuff was excellently done. It’s always great to see the crowd get really into cheering for Eddie Murray. I love that guy.
The game was sort of overshadowed with the rain (no pun intended). Once we saw the groundscrew come out, the game was pretty much “Get past the fifth so we don’t waste this outing”. Guthrie was mostly good, even if he ran into some trouble. I’m curious to see what pitchers are used in the resumption. Burnett was cruising for the most part, but his pitch count was rising quickly, so I think all things considered, if we can throw Cormier out there to finish the game (or thereabouts), we probably got lucky with the rain.
The rain, by the way, was like a Bible level storm, but when they announced the game was suspended, it had mostly stopped. Go figure.
Haha, check out this awesome line from my nemesis, Jon Heyman:
“Sherrill is known for having decent stuff but exceptional guts.”
Wonderful. Heyman, I totally forgive you.
@ Ryan: the veggie dogs are apparently available at the Dogs Plus locations. I didn’t actually verify that last night but that’s the official word.
As far as Teixeira goes, I’m pretty sure he’s not going to be worth the contract he ultimately gets. As much as I would love to have him, if it takes something like ten years at twenty million per then I say let’s offer to drive him to the Bronx ourselves.
In other words, I hope they try their best to sign him, but without grossly overpaying. It’s a pretty delicate thing.
I totally get the anti-Tex argument, and I won’t be totally against him not coming here (but I will be a little sad on the inside). But if we’re not going to overpay for the superstar type, who do we overpay for? In 2008, you have to overpay for everyone.
Basically, you have to decide if you want to be the Twins or the Red Sox. The Twins have no money, and the Sox are of course loaded. Both teams are well known for running well, competing every year. The Sox use their well run farm system to serve as the basis for the team as well as trading for big players, and they use their money to supplement the farm system with big contracts.
The Twins rely totally on their farm system, and can’t afford to sign free agents of note, and indeed can’t even afford to extend their own good players, relying on trading them away as they approach free agency to get new prospects.
I would rather the Orioles be run like the Red Sox, because they have franchise players and can create exciting teams with a good blend of quality vets with quality youngsters. In fact, I always wonder how A’s fans cope with never getting to know any of their players, because the good ones just move on within a few years.
So, are we the Twins & A’s (probably, baseball’s best run team per buck) or the Red Sox (unfortunately, baseball’s best run team)?
Millar’s TERRIBLE error
Then Fidel and BRob come out gunning (b2b singles)
but freakin’ AJ GIDP
I was happy gamecasting but might just work now. Damnit.
Neal you’re dreaming.
What’s the magic number where he isn’t worth it? Nancy Drew makes 14M @ 5 yrs
Whatever the threshold was for AndyMac, I’m sure it just went up 5 or 10 mil after Millar’s error
Oh I know we’ll need to overpay for him, but there has to be a limit. A bad contract can hamstring a team for years (any team not named Janquis or Red Sox, that is). We’re probably closer to the Twins than the Sox simply because we don’t have the deep pockets the Sox have, but in fact we’re probably somewhere between them. I think it would be a huge mistake to pretend otherwise, meaning that when it comes time to overpay, we have to overpay smartly.
Well, what does that mean? Do we settle for second tier free agents because they would ostensibly be cheaper?
Someone was saying we should add one or two quality pitchers to eat innings this offseason – are you kidding me? One pitcher of the “quality” of Carlos Silva costs 48 mil. We’d have to overpay smartly and settle on guys like Randy Wolf.
I suggested that, and I’m saying that this team has no pitching depth whatsoever. We are neither the Sox nor the Twins because both of those teams have depth in their farm system. I’m just saying we need to buy or trade for some kind of halfway reliable starter so that our rotation doesn’t consist of Guthrie and 4 young guys that can’t pitch. Would you start 09 with this rotation? With 3 guys that can’t pitch past the 5th inning? DT has said himself that there are no other options in the farm system and that he’d prefer to have the AA guys stay in the minors. Right now, if Rodrigo Lopez didn’t have a grudge against the O’s, I would say sign him because he’d be more than ideal. Why is he even still a free agent? How does Ponson get a job before Lopez?
Man, the Jays are a bunch of white dudes and Alex Rios, huh? What a stale team they have – it would suck to be a Jays fan.
From Roch:
“Jamie Walker allowed three runs – including a homer – and five hits in one inning today at Double-A Bowie.”
Jesus…
@ Andrew: I guess the more I think about it the more I realize that my issue has as much to do with years as dollars. I think we’d be crazy to offer a ten-year deal to Teixeira, and frankly I think even a six-year deal would be pushing it. Yet I have a feeling he’ll be asking for something along those lines, so that’s why I’m a little concerned.
To the broader question, though, the answer is simply: build smart. If bringing in a high-priced free agent makes sense then it makes sense, but I want to see good decision making. I can’t quantify that, exactly, until they start making moves, but I know for sure it doesn’t involve a spending binge. That’s how we got here in the first place, and it almost never works for anyone.
Nick!
Roddy had TJ surgery less than a year ago.
And yeah, I realize we’re not as good as either of those teams, but i didn’t want to say “Are we the Royals or the Pirates?”. But what do we WANT to be, long term? I think we’ve got to flex those financial muscles sooner or later.
Neal, you said that we are probably closer to the Twins than the Sox because we don’t have deep pockets. Not arguing with that, but where do you find out stuff like that. I’d be interested in knowing what team’s profits are. I know no one can compete w/ the Yanks in profit because they get, what, 100 Mil? from YES network. We’ve got Masn now which should give us some extra money. I guess I would have just expected us to be closer to the Red Sox than the Twins.
This game is going nowhere. Bah
Good point about Lopez, I forgot about that.
That’s a good question, RD. I was just going off of memory but here’s a link:
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/33/biz_baseball08_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Rank.html
Here are the relevant revenue figures (numbers from 2007):
Yankees: $327 million
Red Sox: $263 million
Orioles: $166 million
Twins: $149 million
Marlins (the bottom): $128 million
Add it all up and we are what we are: a mid-market club. I’m not saying that has much — if anything — to do with our ability to compete, but it does mean we can’t just throw money around like the Sox and Janqs.
I just edited that comment to remove the part about MASN, since I goofed on the year.
Wow, I thought we were a whole lot closerto the top than we are. I guess just b/c we had those high payrolls in the 90s I just assumed. Thanks for the info, though.
Well, I can’t argue with that. But I can say our current payroll is 66.8 million, with the real potential of skimming away the contracts of Chad Bradford(3.66), George Sherrill (nearly 1) Aubrey Huff(8), Jay Payton(5), Adam Loewen(0.8), Greg Aquino(0.5), Juan Castro (nearly 1), Kevin Millar (3.8), and Brian Roberts(6.3) before the end of the winter. Of course, arbritration salaries go up, Nick will get a big raise for one, but let’s make a reasonable guess that Huff, Castro, Aquino, Loewen, Millar, Payton, and Sherrill leave the Orioles payroll, and say that the combined increased salaries or guys like Guthrie, Markakis, and Scott total around an increase of 12 mil, just as a ballpark guess. So, our payroll before any additions would be just under 60 million dollars.
With an RSN, there’s no way anyone can convince me that the Baltimore Orioles shouldn’t be looking to increase their total payroll by like 40 million dollars per year. So, yes, Tex might not be the wisest choice, but who are we spending that money on? Nobody? There really isn’t that much out there free agent wise this winter.
You need to be able to spend a reasonably good amount of money to go anywhere in the AL East, that should be more than obvious to everyone…so where does it go?
There’s no question that room exists to increase payroll, and I’m fairly certain that’s the plan. But we can’t compete with the Sox and Janqs in that department, which was my only point in bringing up the revenues.
I do hope, by the way, that we bring Teixeira in. As long as it’s not a completely outrageous deal then I say go get him. While we’re at it, A.J. Burnett would make a fine #2 behind Guthrie. I’m just saying we can’t afford to get under a rock with guys like that.
I guess I’m a) just sick and tired of seeing Kevin Millar not play well, and b) intrigued by the idea, which I’m certain I heard MacPHail say once, of developing your own pitching and filling in the gaps with free agents.
Next year’s rotation sure seems like it needs help, no? We’ve got:
Guthrie-Cabrera-Olson-Patton-Burres (I guess)…that’s not inspiring. But, we’ve heard good things about Patton, and you need to keep running Olson out there (because sooner or later he’s going to figure it out), and Cabs and Guts aren’t going anywhere, so yeah if we found another starter that’d be great stuff. There’ll be plenty of vets you can bring in for the cheap to swallow innings and get value from, so I don’t think Burnett is the answer.
Paradoxical perhaps that I want us to overspend on a slugger but not a pitcher when the pitching is what’s killing us right now, but I don’t really like Burnett, I guess. Something about him strikes me the wrong way. Who would I like to see the Orioles target? Well, one name pops out to me of note, but I could see us grabbing out for a guy like Derek Lowe or Mark Hendrickson, cheaper than Burnett, and older, but could bridge the gap between today and the next pitching generation.
I would love to see Tex here in charm city. And maybe we do need to grossly overpay him, not so he can help us win, but so he cant beat the hell out of us for the next 6-10 years with someone else. You know how depressing it would be if he played for the yanks and we had to watch him bomb HR’s to eutaw street for them.
I was for the idea of “overpaying” an ace since the offense isnt the problem, but i like andrews idea of signing a Lowe type pitcher, whose not as far past their prime as trachsel, to be here for a year or two. just until we get Tillman, and Erbe, and Matuz up here. If we could have a rotaition of say Guthrie-someone else-Cabrera-Albers/Patton-Matuz to start ’09, i could live with that. Give Burress and Olson some more time in AAA, and Radhames too.
I put Matuz up there because when we drafted him they said he is major leauge ready. Not an overpowering fastball, but pinpoint accuracy. I’ll take it cause im tired of seeing DCab hit the backstop 8 times a game, and the other guys hang curve balls that become souveniers.
Also we dont know how Patton will be, but Albers can start. he’s done it, and hes good. Cormier has done a real good job filling in for Albers in his role. Let Cormier be the long guy next year, and let Albers start.
In summary…Sign Matuz, do whatever it takes to sign Texieria, sign a “bridge the gap” guy, fix the starting rotation so it is not the same as this year, fuck the yankees.
Yeah fuck the yankees!
I think Olson should stay up here. He was very, very, very good in AAA during all of his stints there, and I don’t think he can learn much more. I think he’s just got to figure out how to get out big leaguers, and when he does he’ll be pretty good, in the #3 sense. It seems like his problems that we hear about constantly are of the sort of nibbling or lack of confidence problems that you can only get past by getting major leaguers out. And I don’t know if Matusz is that major league ready…but I’m no scout. At any rate, our pitching depth is, thank God, about to improve dramatically.
Wieters had a pinch hit grand slam yesterday. Good lord, this kid is so legit it’s ridiculous. Have the O’s seen a prospect like this before? It’s still early for him, but damn.
I agree with Huff – Halladay is the best pitcher in the game. Screw Johan.
Interesting comment this morning from Jayson Stark at the four letter:
“…if [Jorge Posada]‘s going to have to be a first baseman/DH, you can scratch Mark Teixeira (among others) off their offseason shopping list”.
It’s mind boggling that we have the best prospect in baseball. I can’t wait for Wieters to be in Baltimore, I really can’t. How exciting.
A more interesting comment now from CBS’ Dan Knobler:
“With the Marlins still looking everywhere to add a catcher, one rumor in Baltimore had them going after Ramon Hernandez. That might not be such a good idea, because Hernandez has a big contract and as one official said: ‘There’s not much there anymore.’”
Fascinating that the Marlins would be buyers, in need of kind of a crappy expensive catcher. So, go out there and pray to Odin (or whoever you choose to pray to) that the Marlins really are that dumb.
I think I’m in the midst of a 180 in regards to Sherrill. I think he needs to be traded.
When you look at this roster and in the minor leagues, the work is far from over. And if Roberts stays, your next biggest trade chip is Georgie. How else can we rebuild? We can get some decent pieces for Huff maybe. After that, there’s no one worth trading. If George can bring back a real deal, young shortstop and a pitching prospect, you absolutely have to make that deal. Because there’s no other way we are getting a shortstop. Right? We can’t be content to draft and develop. If good old George can bring this team some other pieces, then you do it. While good relievers are far from common, it’s one area I think we actually have some depth in. And there’s no reason to think that Johnson or even Bradford couldn’t close some games. They just happen to not pitch in the 9th inning right now. Ray’s on the horizon. Hoey is out there somewhere. Johnson has materialized out of thin air. We need a shortstop and more starting pitching. If you can get both of those for one reliever, then that’s a no-brainer.
“You need to be able to spend a reasonably good amount of money to go anywhere in the AL East”
Hello? Tampa?
You have to trade pieces you can replace. Roberts can’t be replaces, I’d say resign him, give him a fat contract for 6 years.
Sherrill can be replaced. Johnson, Ray, Hoey, McCrory, Doyne… pick one.
Huff can be replaced. DH/1B/3B? Moore, Costanzo, Reimold, Scott, Salazar, Montanez… heck, anyone who can swing a bat.
Bradford and Walker? See Sherrill.
Mora? If he can be traded somehow, Moore and Costanzo.
Hernandez? Santos, Quiroz, Torrealba….. dare I say Wieters?
Don’t say Weiters.
In fact, I think he should spend his career at Bowie. The way he’s going, he will be a lock for the Minor League Hall of Fame. First ballot. And you just never know how these prospects will be in the majors, so why risk it?
Sorry. Don’t mind me. Still miffed from yesterday’s non-performance.
This was interesting – AndyMac is a legend and a hero:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/worst-to-first-in-the-al/
I totally agree Dan. I get what Neal is saying about having a folk hero to get behind, I really do. But the season is done. The fun part may be over, unfortunately. Now we start to see exactly where one good starter and four erratic (at best) starters get us. We absolutely must trade Huff and Sherrill. Both will get us something decent, hopefully at least one good SS prospect and some more pitching.
The rotation is ridiculous at this point, particularly with D-Cab pitching as bad as he ever has. Maybe one of the other three turns it around, but I don’t see any signs of that. Thank the lord for Guthrie.
Anyway, trade Sherrill and Huff for the right deals. And of course trade any of the other usual suspects if you possibly can (Payton, Mora, Ramon, Walker, Bradford, Millar). Let’s not let two good months of play blind us to how far away this team still is. Sorry for the pessimism. DT rules though, as has become increasingly obvious, and with MacPhail on top this team is in the right hands, no doubt. That’s cause for much celebration, and we’ll see that leadership pay off very soon, just probably not this year.
Bottom line is that Sherrill, if traded, will still always be remembered fondly as that folk hero. But also as the guy that really made that Bedard trade an absolute mugging.
I’m also tired of Millar.
No one is going to trade a MLB ready SS
(aka someone who can start in 08 or 09)
AND a pitching prospect for Sherrill.
Thank Eric Gagne for that. But it ain’t happening. And that’s not a bad thing.
We are the proud owners of a stockpile of untradeable assets.
I dunno, man, have you been reading the rumors? There’s like 10 teams scouting Sherrill and the asking price is a shortstop. Maybe not major league ready, but at least a prospect. People think we could get Wood, at least. And you better believe Andy won’t trade him unless there’s pitching involved. Eric Gagne is not George Sherrill. If you think George is untradeable, you’re out of your mind.
“Hello? Tampa?”
Tampa Bay got to where it is – which is poised to dominate baseball over the next 6 years – by being the worst team in baseball, and accumulating an outstanding farm system in the process, over 10 years. Following that route would put us about 8 years away from contention. Also, Tampa has already started to flex their finances, signing up Longoria that quickly and not shying away from expensive draftees and such. They’re starting to spend money, too.
I am not saying we need to spend 200 million dollars to compete. Nobody does. But we need to be a financial player, for sure.
the man –
first of all I’m prescribing you methadone to get you off of the MLBTR. The contradictions in regards to recent Sherrill posts are too extensive to be posted here (check your gmail)
we’ve already discussed Sherrill’s innings this year in comparison with past years. Anyone who can find a link to his stats page can realize that he is a ticking time bomb this season. I’m guessing the ten GM’s you mentioned realize this as well.
It would be foolish to trade him for a SS if that particular player would not start for us this year or in 09.
our most valueable trade piece is Roberts. Hands down. No debate. But everyone loves him so they steer the conversation towards Huff and Sherrill, both of whom have more value in our minds than anywhere else
The problem is there’s no replacement for Roberts because there’s no second baseman in the system.
Whatever minor league shortstop we could get for Sherrill would start for us. Today. Just because you’re AA in one organization doesn’t mean you’re not a major leaguer in another.
I really don’t buy that Sherrill is a ticking time bomb. He had a rough stretch and it looks like he’s over it and he’s stretched out.
If there’s 10 teams scouting the guy, somebody wants him. And if there’s 10 teams scouting the guy (and it’s not just MLBTR reporting that), then that means there’s competition and someone is going to overpay for him. And if Andy MacPhail is running the team, that means he’s going to demand a lot for him. And if no one offers it, then Sherrill remains an Oriole. That’s it.
You only deal Roberts if you can get a real deal shortstop and 3 other pitching prospects. But then where are you getting a second baseman?
I argue for the keeping of Brian Roberts only because there’s no obvious replacement, not only for his defense at second base, but also because he is the best lead off hitter in baseball. Replacable, yes… but not easily. Everyone else mentioned is easily replaced.
I’m all for signing Roberts for the long term. He’s a Baltimore guy, came up through our system, would love to see him retire as an Oriole. He’s definitely an O’s HOFer for sure, I don’t even see how he couldn’t be.
I’ll miss Sherrill and that dang hat of his. I think everyone will. It’s not like Tejada and Bedard, who both came with personality defects, and to say we miss them would only be a half truth. Sherrill would be missed by Baltimore, but if the price is right he has to go… his numbers don’t support him in the long run, in spite of what DTM says. I’m not even talking about the rough patch either.
Some of you have short memories.
Sherrill was a bit player in Seattle last year. A set-up/situational guy…
There are a dozen George Sherrill’s in the majors right now. Guys pitching for LA, St. Louis, Minnesota, Texas, Altlanta, etc. who are afterthought situational guys who might turn into a decent closer if presented the opportunity.
Ever been to LA? There are 1,000 gin joints there. “If this one is closed, the next one is open.”
Move Sherrill if the deal is right and don’t fret over it. There are plenty more out there just like him.
Baseball is loaded with average pitchers. Sherrill is one of ‘em.
Drew is totally correct – just because he’s made a name for himself with his gaudy saves totals and All-Star performance and folklorish hat is no reason not to shop him around. I think the cost of 2 or 3 prospects, including a top shortstop is perhaps unrealistic, but give me an above average minor league infielder with promise and MAYBE a A-level pitcher (ala Jake Renshaw) and there’s no way that’s not a winner.
I know what you all are saying is true. But dammit, I love his All-Star performance and folklorish hat.
And, by the way, “folklorish hat” is genius.
If we can get something decent for him then I know we have to make the deal. I just secretly hope that all the offers suck.
If you want a closer, look at WHIP statistics. One would assume that a pitcher who surrenders the least amount of hits and walks would be the most effective closer, right? *grabs your face and nods it up and down for you*
Look at what relievers on the Orioles would be good at closing a game… one should stand out at you. Hint* It’s not Sherrill. Sherrill is completely expendable, aside from being a lefty reliever, and closers are a dime a dozen.