Orioles Closer Than Ravens?
It’s an interesting question posed by Marc Unger over at the WNST site: are the Orioles on a faster track to contention than the Ravens are? He says yes — give it a read here.
He makes some excellent points, I think.
Orioles Closer Than Ravens?It’s an interesting question posed by Marc Unger over at the WNST site: are the Orioles on a faster track to contention than the Ravens are? He says yes — give it a read here. He makes some excellent points, I think. 40 comments to Orioles Closer Than Ravens? |
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i disagree with that sentiment only because the orioles play in the a.l. east.
until the orioles cough up BIG money on pitching – say, an $120 million overall payroll – they’ll fight for third. and before anyone mentions the rays:
1. because of the payroll disparity stories like the rays might happen once every ten years in our division.
2. i’m not totally convinced the rays won’t collapse (may be my old opinion of them surfacing since i don’t really follow baseball anymore)
3. if the rays are for real, well, we have a great young team to contend with, along with two teams with overpaid ugly fuckfaces.
both teams could be in the playoffs come 2010. both have new coaches, great leaders, seasoned vets, exciting players in their prime(Willis-Cakes), and young guys with huge upsides just waiting for the chance(Flacco/Rice-AJ/Wieters).
however because the two sports are so completly different, i still say the ravens have the best chance at making the playoffs first. probably in 09′. all it could take is a timely 5 or 6 game win streak in football and your in the playoffs. you can draw an easy schedule, and on any given sunday…
the ravens also dont have the Pats, and Colts in their division.
also in football defense wins championships. (07′Giants, 00′Ravens, 85′Bears, every steelers team to win one) and many others. hell, the ravens didnt score a touchdown for 5 games and won the super bowl. just like defense, you need pitching in baseball. which the O’s do not have. the guys in farm system will be there through 09′, and when they get here, probably will need more seasoning, and wont be good until 2011 or 12. if they follow the trail of Bedard, Loewen, DCab(not that hes good by anymeans, but better).
I agree that the biggest issue is the fact that the AL East is an all-star division. By contrast, the AFC North is fairly open from year to year. Pittsburgh tends to be the favorite for a reason, but the history is that all four teams beat each other up pretty good and in any given year at least three of them have a shot to take it.
The underlying thrust of Marc’s point, though, is right on. The Ravens are in something of a no-man’s land right now while the Orioles are in the midst of a very positive season, during which their long-term direction has become clear. Crazy as it may seem, the O’s are actually in better shape than the Ravens right now. That might not be true in three months, but it’s true in late August, 2008.
I agree that Marc makes some good points, but then again, I might be considered by some of you to be a tad biased since we both work for the same station and I think he and his brother do good work on the air.
However, I find it interesting that TLC chose THAT specific blog to post as a thread herein. I wonder if Marc’s work would have been posted had the tenor of the content been the opposite? Meaning, of course, what if he would have written that the Ravens are closer to the post-season than the woeful, 12-years-in-a-row-in-last-place O’s that we all love so much. Had he written THAT piece, I wonder if it would have been published here.
Probably not. Make that: absolutely not.
TLC is getting increasingly close to appearing as if it’s “on the take” from the baseball team.
Maybe that’s the intention. Maybe you do want this site to be considered a quasi-promotional arm for the team. If so, there’s nothing wrong with that, really. Orioles Hangout serves that purpose and they seem to be doing very well over there.
Someone on my block has a teen age girl who walks around in all black and looks like she’s about ready to lead some kind of satanic ritual. She sports the typical look – piercings all over her face, dark make-up, etc. One day last summer, I said, “what look are you going for, the disgruntled, angry, rebellious teen ager?” She deadpanned: “How’d you guess that, genius?”
Maybe the look you all have here at TLC is the look you want.
If so, rock on.
Actually, Drew, I’m a “quasi-promotional arm” for the Fighting Ungers. And proud of it. Marc asked if I would share that post here, and I was happy to do so. I respect the hell out of the fact that they let me on the air every Tuesday, and in return they have my ear on things like this.
Next time you put up a post on WNST that you feel should be shared here, you’re free to email me and tell me so. I can’t guarantee I’ll make it a main page post, but there’s a decent chance. And if I don’t, I’ll at least mention it in the comments and steer people that way.
As to the “on the take” from the O’s point, I think you’re probably aware of how ridiculous that is. Schtick works great on the radio, not so much here.
I just gave this some more thought and I’ll cop to something here: I should have said something in the main post to indicate that Marc got in touch with me about this. I let that slip originally, I think, because everybody knows that I’m on that show once a week. I assumed too much in that regard. Consider this my apology for that.
I hadn’t ever assumed this site was anything other than an Orioles website that also provides insight to other Maryland sports.
It is called “the loss column”, a term that (to me anyway) endears itself primarily to Orioles fans, and to a lesser extent baseball on the whole. This is due mostly in part to Fred Manfra, who routinely refers to which column the Orioles find themselves in on any given night during the baseball season.
You’re getting at something I’ve struggled with, Greg.
This site was designed to be (as the header says) a Baltimore sports site, albeit with a tilt towards baseball and the O’s. As things developed, the O’s became the primary focus. That’s a by-product of both the work I’ve done and the way the community has developed. Some of it has been in my control, some of it hasn’t. I have no complaints as far as that goes because I absolutely love this site and the people who read it, comment on it, and generally make it what it is.
But, TLC is not strictly an O’s site. I think your impression of it — “an Orioles website that also provides insight to other Maryland sports” — is about 75% correct. Where I hope to go from here is to make the other 25% more valuable than it maybe has been in the past. Which means more and better Ravens, Terps, Wizards, Caps, and local college talk.
It’s kind of a living thing in that regard, you know?
Well, keep trying to push the other sports, and you’ll rid yourself of the banner you don’t want and earn the banner you do want.
As for Drew…com’on. We – and I doubt I or we at TLC are alone in this – just like the direction the baseball team has and is taking this season. They’ve made a good effort to “reconnect with the fanbase” which has often been cited as error #1 with the team. They’re putting Baltimore back on the road uniforms. They’ve hosted a large number of very good giveaways this year. I went for 50 million, but all I got was a nice pin (who cares, but it’s still a nice gesture), a Luke Scott T-shirt, and a handful of O’s car magnets. They’ve made a bigger point of celebrating their community work. They’ve improved the farm system (Bowie’s magic number is 4), signed both of their top draft picks in the past 2 years – AND you haven’t heard a single fucking word from the man upstairs. The team on the field has some sort of palpable charm, even if nobody can quite put their finger on it.
Do the Orioles deserve criticism? Oh yes. That pitching is criminal. It’s an old team in a lot of ways, and there’s a lot of work to be done. But what exactly are they doing where you can sit back and say “Going into this season with my expectations, which are the fault of the previous years of poor planning, and with the way this season has turned out, they still deserve a ton of hate because…”?
Anyway, gang, I’m going dark for at least a few days, maybe a couple weeks. Someone put up threads for the Eastern League playoffs and celebrate Bowie while I’m out. Go O’s – go Ravens!
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“TLC is getting increasingly close to appearing as if it’s “on the take” from the baseball team”
are you still picking up your billick paychecks?
Going dark? That’s a shame — your contributions are key. But, hey, thanks all the same. Looking forward to the eventual return.
I think your point regarding the O’s is dead-on, and I’m not sure I could add much to it. You pretty much summed up where I stand.
Definite “Yes” on covering the Eastern League playoffs. I want to make sure that, if Bowie makes it, they get all the credit they deserve. If I falter on that, I hope someone will remind me either in the comments or via email. And if anyone has an interest in a main page post on that topic, just get in touch and we’ll make it happen.
For that matter, the opportunity for guest posts is always open for anyone who feels the itch. Just throw me an idea and we’ll talk.
That even includes you, Drew.
It may not be a bad idea for a TLC Bowie trip in September. I’d love to catch some playoff magic with people here.
That, my man, is an excellent idea. I feel bad that I haven’t been to Bowie yet this year, but a playoff road trip would wash that right away.
Let’s not count chickens, though. They still have to get there.
Well, Neal, you SHOULD be a quasi-promotional-arm of the FU. After all, they turn over a portion of their show to you and the quid pro quo that goes with that should include you helping to promote their work. Nothing at all wrong with that. In fact, it’s smart business.
You missed my point, though. Or, maybe, you got my point but didn’t want to address it.
The issue I brought up wasn’t WHY you posted Marc’s blog or that he contacted you and asked to have it reviewed on TLC.
I merely wondered if you would have posted his work had his opinion been “pro Ravens and anti Orioles”. That’s all. Had he written that the Ravens were closer to making the post-season than the O’s and if within that work he would have taken shots at the O’s for their (again) last place finish and their lack of pitching, I wonder if you would have given the blog such 5-star treatment?
That’s all I was asking.
I know the answer, of course. Based on that, it’s probably fair to ask why I posted that question yesterday in the first place.
Well, just remember that even 2nd place in the division gets to go in as a wild card… we’d have to lose a lot of games to go below 2nd place.
Although I guess the mets did it last year.
“what if he would have written that the Ravens are closer to the post-season than the woeful, 12-years-in-a-row-in-last-place O’s that we all love so much”
After reading your post again Drew, it dawned on me that NO, neal probably wouldn’t post an article like that. But not for the reason you’d think; truth of the matter is that no one WOULD write an article like that. Commonplace thought is that the Ravens are a better team. After all they’ve been to the playoffs in the last three years, won the Superbowl in the last eight years. They’ve got the fan support the Orioles never had, and even from an outsider’s perspective, the Ravens look 10x more successful as a franchise sport in this town.
To write an article about how the Orioles are closer to “better” than the Ravens… well that, my friend, THAT is why the article can be written and posted… it defies conventional thought, and something I’ve always noted about the Ravens. They really aren’t better.
Last I checked, the Ravens had a .313 winning percentage in 2007. Yet everyone complains about the bad bad Orioles.
I can easily produce a piece that says “the Ravens are closer to making the playoffs than the Orioles”.
The NFL lends itself to teams recovering far more quickly from “down years”. The Orioles haven’t won since Clinton was President. They haven’t made the playoffs since 1997.
I’ll bet you the $50k the O’s just gave to their 50 Millionth ticket buyer (50 millionth “fan” would make you believe 50 million people have sat in the seats, which, for those of us who’ve been there, we know isn’t true) that the Ravens won’t go 12 years without having a winning season and won’t go 12 years without making the playoffs. Make that $100k.
So, I can EASILY write a piece that says, “the Ravens will make the playoffs again before the O’s and here’s why…”
And I don’t know where you came up with that thought that “the O’s haven’t had fan support like the Ravens”…the O’s OWNED the city in the 1990′s until the organization disenfranchised themselves with Baltimore. Meanwhile, the Ravens did the exact opposite and embraced the city and that’s how (and why) football has taken over baseball here in Baltimore.
I’m in the camp that says the Ravens will probably win 4-6 games this year. But they’ll win again soon. That’s the way the NFL works.
MLB doesn’t work that way. Just ask the O’s, Royals, Pirates and Reds…all of whom have stunk for a long time on and off the field.
Only in this crazy town could a group of dudes who like to have good, positive, constructive conversation about their local baseball team be painted as being “on the take” by said baseball team. Only in this crazy town could a local sports radio host criticize local fans for collectively enjoying the direction of their favorite baseball team.
I mean… wow.
Of course a post about the Ravens being closer to contention than the Orioles wouldn’t make it on this website. Why should it? It wouldn’t be anything new or interesting. That would be, I would guess, how the majority of local fans see things right now – that the Ravens are closer to competing. Why feature a piece that says nothing new? That wouldn’t have inspired conversation? Isn’t that what this blog is about in the first place? Plus, yes, most of the readers here agree that the O’s are heading in the right direction, and if there’s a piece of writing that supports that line of thinking, then why wouldn’t we like to read it, especially if it sort of goes against the grain in terms of what the majority probably thinks?
All I can do is shake my head sometimes, man.
“So, I can EASILY write a piece that says, “the Ravens will make the playoffs again before the O’s and here’s why…””
And DTM said exactly my response:
“Of course a post about the Ravens being closer to contention than the Orioles wouldn’t make it on this website. Why should it? It wouldn’t be anything new or interesting.”
This was the point of my original post, but you chose to argue semantics then actually look at what I’m trying to say.
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“And I don’t know where you came up with that thought that “the O’s haven’t had fan support like the Ravens”
“…the Ravens did the exact opposite and embraced the city and that’s how (and why) football has taken over baseball here in Baltimore.”
So… you are disagreeing with yourself in the same paragraph? Does Baltimore support it’s football team or it’s baseball team more right now? Your first statement seems to say “How can you say baseball has less fan support than football? The Orioles were way popular in the 90s!” and then you go on to say “How can you say football has less fan support than baseball? The Ravens have gone out of their way to embrace the city like the Orioles havent!”
Geez, Greg, I was less confused reading “Fountainhead” by Ayn Rand.
I had no idea only “interesting things” could be posted on TLC. So, if I write a piece criticizing the Orioles, that immediately makes it NOT interesting? Or, is it interesting? I don’t know. I assume you’re the judge of that. I had my PSA screening done last week and a finger (two, maybe) shoved up my rear to check my prostate (everything’s fine, by the way). I found it all VERY interesting, in a “discovering your health” kind of way. Can I write a piece about that and post it here?
You don’t read very well, so let me spell it out for you one more time.
Baseball owned this city in the 90′s. In case you weren’t around, we didn’t have a team here (football) from ’90 to ’95. When the Ravens arrived, the O’s STILL owned the city and did so for a few years while the Ravens were in their infancy. Then, the O’s started to shit on people and the Ravens started to get good and the Ravens figured out that when you’re good, you can capture a lot of hearts by just being nice to people. The Orioles treated people like shit when they got good and when you turn your back on Baltimore, they respond accordingly. They STILL haven’t recovered yet, attendance wise, from their disconnection with the fans in the early 2000′s. Take away the 20 games that comprise the Red Sox and Yankees coming “home” to face the O’s at OPACY and opening day and one or two other promotional games and about 15,000 real live humans go to 60 of the 81 home games.
And to answer your question, Baltimore supports its football team more right now. The Ravens had more people at some of their training camp sessions than the O’s have had for Tuesday night games against American League rivals.
I hope that was interesting enough.
As for DTM’s comment: “of course a piece about the Ravens being closer to contention wouldn’t make it on the website”, that’s because such a piece would invariably have to point out the misgivings of the Orioles (if enough space allowed for it) in comparison to the football team…and THAT is why it wouldn’t make it on site.
It has nothing to do with “being interesting”.
It has more to do with trivial jealousy for the football organization and an undying love for the baseball franchise. And, as I continue to say, that’s absolutely your right here at the TLC.
I’ve written a dozen pieces about the shoddy way the O’s have treated the fans, the media, the players, etc. and none of those fine pieces of work (lol) have graced the front page of TLC.
I wonder why?
No jealousy here. I really don’t follow football, to be honest.
No one is saying a piece by you that criticizes the O’s wouldn’t get mentioned here (I’m sensing some “trivial jealousy”) if it was something new, but if it’s just a rehashing of all the negative propaganda that you spew, then why even make mention of it? People know where you stand on things. Everyone is well aware of the Orioles shortcomings in the past. It’s just that this year, there really haven’t been ANY of those “typical Orioles blunders” from the organization that you love to hate (that loves to hate you?). In fact, this year we’ve seen nearly every facet of the organization take a turn for the better. Does it erase years of terrible management, etc? No, but it’s pointless to keep looking at the past. Sports are supposed to be FUN, Drew. Sports are fun. Remember? So let’s run with the positives. This is largely a positive website, which you love to point out. “It’s your right”. Yes, it is. But isn’t it really how sports should be looked at overall? I don’t want to come onto sports websites and be depressed. Shit, that happens enough with everyday life. Sports are an escape.
Criticism is fine, man. And welcome. And constructive. But there’s a fine line between constructive criticism and old news. Bitching about how the O’s didn’t promote a charity bike event as much as they could have really doesn’t interest me as much as seeing the exciting positive changes – FINALLY – that we deserve so much.
One last note – take a look at TLC posts from it’s early days. You’ll find much under the tags “shame”, “disgust”, and “deep frustration”. The negative aspects of our beloved ballclub have been well-documented and discussed here. But this isn’t a news site. It’s a sports FANS blog, and we’re going to talk about what we enjoy talking about.
I thought “pieces” are what journalists write. Drew, I think you meant to say “blog entries”.
It has everything to do with being interesting! You read the 1000 articles that Phelps is the best olympian of all time? Duh. But find one that argues he’s not, or that he’s not even the best olympian in this years games and see how many hits the article got. It’s because it’s an opinion contrary to everyone elses and people find that interesting. I don’t even agree with the FU post but it’s definitely an interesting (and very very very refreshing) blog entry.
Also, did the whole “the Ungers asked me to post a link” get lost in this argument?
I don’t usually chime in here, but Drew’s ignorance is infuriating. And it’s even more infurating that it actually gets me infuriated. Keep up the good work Drew – that’s what keeps me listening.
Also, did the whole “the Ungers asked me to post a link” get lost in this argument?
What fun would it be to, like, you know, pay attention and stuff?
No jealousy on my part, Dan. I have my own forum, where, thankfully, I’m allowed to say whatever I want.
I merely wondered about THIS forum and whether or not it had morphed into a venue where only people who bless the baseball team are welcome.
Don’t look now, but it appears as if you guys have answered that question.
I really like you, Drew, and I wish you nothing but the best. You’re among friends here.
So I think it’s only right that I tell you — man to man — that you’re embarrassing yourself. I’m not being sarcastic here. You are straight up embarrassing yourself right now, and that makes me sad.
No need to feel sad, Neal.
It’s all part of the game.
Anyone seen a fat, crying, attention starved baby wandering around the Baltimore sports landscape? Oh, there’s drew…
Sorry guys, sometimes he wanders to these websites when his diaper gets filled, and needs to know why people aren’t changing him… signed Nestor.
Alright, no need to get “nasty” (couldn’t help myself).
Seriously, though.
Drews whole argument seems to be that this site has gone the way of Orioles baseball, everything else is secondary. Had the FU piece been more pro-Ravens, it wouldn’t have been posted because of a orange slant towards the O-birds, confirming Drews belief this site is a shill for the Orioles.
Again, it’s not news to post “Ravens are better the Orioles”. You said that you COULD easily write an article. Everyone can. But it isn’t news. I COULD write an article that says the sky is blue, but no one would read it. You knew it was. When someone writes that the sky is red and the Orioles are going to win before the Ravens will; well then you turn your head and say “prove it”. That’s a story that might get someone to actually read it.
Also, baseball is a year round event. In the offseason, this place will be just as busy as it is now, with trade talks and extensions and the like. Miguel Tejada and Bedard leaving were some huge talking points about baseball when baseball wasn’t even playing. What happened to the Ravens besides the draft that was worth talking about? Some player getting stopped in the airport for drugs?
I don’t disagree with the fact that maybe this site has a baseball slant; the typeface is in orange, the title is baseball related, most of the posts are about baseball. It just so happens that the Orioles are pretty interesting to talk about these days, given the shakeups and the prospects and the “winning team baseball” attitude that had been lacking for years.
No offense to the Ravens, but I think for the first time since maybe the inception of the Ravens do the Orioles look better than the Ravens, and I think that’s newsworthy.
IMO, all this hooplah has is the fault of Drew, when he stated in the 4th post of this thread:
“I wonder if Marc’s work would have been posted had the tenor of the content been the opposite? Meaning, of course, what if he would have written that the Ravens are closer to the post-season than the woeful, 12-years-in-a-row-in-last-place O’s that we all love so much. Had he written THAT piece, I wonder if it would have been published here.
Probably not. Make that: absolutely not.”
You were Picking Fights like a cheap Bully, by creating Imaginary Scenarios, and then Speculating your own Answers…frankly, I’m bored.
Lucky for me, we’re in the midst of an exciting Baseball Season.
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Huge win last night. I had my Statistics Department do some research. They determined that the 08 Birds have only been swept 3 times all year, and have responded strongly thereafter on each occassion.
@ Oak – early May – 3 straight road wins vs KC follow
@ Tampa – late May – 2 straights wins vs NY follow
@ Tor – mid July – win at Fenway vs BOS follows
In fact, they haven’t been swept at all since the All Star Break.
In FACT, since the break on three occassions they lost the first two games of the series and stepped up to avoid the sweep. (late july vs. LA, mid Aug @ CLE and yesterday)
This team is not rolling over, and I like it.
Hey, take it easy with the diaper changing jokes.
Ethan’s on his 4th one of the day and #3 was a Stage 5.
Anything but diaper jokes.
To change the subject, I was at the game last night and it was pretty amazing. Sat in the right field section 96. It was 80% Sux fans. For the first few innings it was actually worse than usual – the guy in front of us turned around and whined, literally almost crying, that “the whole stadium is filled with Red Sox fans, and of course I had to sit in front of you guys.” Then a guy behind us tried to shout us down when we stood and cheered as the Os scored their first run.
But then it got much better. This team never gives up, which I love, even though they must have one of the worst rotations ever assembled. I cannot wait until the end of the season no longer includes having to watch AAA-level guys start who will never pitch for us again (e.g. Waters). Trembley is doing wonders with this team to have them sitting with this record and this pitching staff. It’s incredible.
There is nothing better though, nothing, than the frustration/boredom/depression that overtakes yanks/sux fans when they are losing big at Camden Yards. One of the joys of my life.
drew – on a lighter note, aren’t formula diapers the freakin’ worst?
ugh. so glad i don’t have to deal with that anymore.
sorry for making TLC The Lactose Column
A list of things that Drew did not acknowledge in the past “discussion”:
1) The fact that the FU asked Neal to put up the shout out.
2) The fact that TLC has acknowledged the Orioles shortcomings in the past. It’s right there, look it up.
3) That this year has been the best year of Orioles baseball in nearly 10 years and deserves to be recognized as such.
4) That he, in fact, IS free to say whatever he wants in this forum.
Look, plenty of us complain and bitch and criticise the team on a daily basis. But we also acknowledge the positives. The only reason you get so much flak is because you blatantly ignore the positives and big chunks of everyone else’s comments. Frankly, I enjoyed it when you chimed in with regular acerbic comments, even if they were on a negative slant. That’s fun. But just coming on to slam the website itself and then say “but that’s your right to have this website be this way”? I mean… that’s just being a jerk. Stop me before I write an essay on the things that are wrong with WNST.net.
I think sci nailed — nailed — it with this line: There is nothing better though, nothing, than the frustration/boredom/depression that overtakes yanks/sux fans when they are losing big at Camden Yards.
And, hey, good news! Carl Pavano has been named the Janqs starter for Saturday in Baltimore.
I didn’t “slam” this website in the least.
I simply asked a question about the direction it was going and people flipped out.
I have said (written) here on numerous occadions that I think this is a good site.
I wanna see us pound Mussina tonight, damnit.
I hate off days.
I’m with you, Dan. I feel like this series sets up well for us, despite the pitching issues. If we don’t whack Pavano to Eutaw Street and back on Saturday I will be very disappointed.
Millar has owned Mussina throughout the years
41AB – 18H – 3HR – 11RBI – 7BB – 2K
I won’t be around to post this weekend so I’ll leave my predictions here, check back periodically to gaze into the future and/or admire the pinpoint precision of my ability:
Mussina vs. Liz is the “surprise” game, where Mussina gets shelled and Liz steam rolls the yanks lineup. It’s not a surprise to anyone here, but that’s how the media will spin it. Also, Johnson will get the save.
Pavano vs. Guthrie is a “gimme”
I don’t like the idea of Rasner vs. Cabrera. It feels like the Imminent Sweep will be within reach and then the DC Cab will break our hearts again.
That’s spot on. I’m interested to see if Liz really “found his control” or if AAA hitters just swing at everything. It won’t matter though because Mussina can’t handle Roberts, Mora, Markakis, Millar, and Huff.